How much of the Bee Network's success is franchising, and how much is just money?

Vernon is candid that franchising is probably not for everybody. But if you want genuine integration across every mode, he argues, you cannot do it without control of the buses and the fare revenue.

This is the first Interchat recorded by Katie English, my Freewheeling associate.

Data City Founder Tom Forth has been told some extraordinary reasons why the North underperforms the South.

Including that it’s down to Northerners being stupid. Or drunk.

He’s even read academic papers outlining these theories.

In a fascinating episode of the podcast, we get into a discussion on the real reasons.

They go back a thousand years but transport and our hyper-centralised way of making decisions are right at the heart of it.

I really hope you enjoy listening to this conversation as much as I enjoyed having it.